I weep when I see that system being ripped to shreds, the protections of the people being ignored by false cries for imaginary safety and security (be it from "terrorists" or "climate change").  I sob when I see those ideals being perverted into means to oppress my fellow citizens and to see those brave and profound men and women being mocked for when they lived and their ideals being ridiculed for providing us the greatest increase in human happiness, production, and quality of life that our species has ever known.

This fourth of July in addition to going to the park, watching the fireworks, and taking a dip at a pool, grab a history book about the founding of the nation, read aloud the Declaration of Independence and discuss the ideals held within that document.  Remember why they fought, think about what they believed, and know how you got here.

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What do you want us to say?

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I want you to do not say.  The last paragraph has my request.

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Quote: from Serj Tankian at 9:50 am on July 3, 2009

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What do you want us to say?

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I want you to do not say. The last paragraph has my request.

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Well if you're posting, there should be something to respond to.

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http://www.freerice.com/index.php

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I think the founding fathers are romanticized far more than they should be. Constitutionalists are very good at doing this, it's an agenda. That said, I don't think we live in the same nation and same principles we once did. We've evolved, not everything is free but there's most likely good reason why.

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Could it not be that literally putting one's life on the line so that other's can live free is a romantic ideal?

Tell me what is there to evolve beyond the point of "We find it to be self evident that all men are created equal."?

We have "evolved" past equality, past human rights?

What are the good reasons, and how good are they that you would believe their are excuses to oppress rights and treat people not as individuals but as assets owned by government?

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You're strawmanning my point. I never said we evolved past human rights or it's a good idea to.

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Individual rights, based on the writings of John Locke in his second treatise on government is the core idea of the revolution and of the founding of our nation.  This is shown explicitly in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence.

Your original statement showed your belief we don't live by the same principles and the reasoning we don't is that we have evolved beyond them.

There is no strawman here.  Your statement shows this to be your reasoning.  I believe your reasoning to be false and since you just agreed that human rights are reasonable and just you have also shown exactly how much you disagree with your previous statement.

It seems more likely you're simply repeating a trite sound byte from one side of the political spectrum having never done the due diligence necessary to see if it held any truth.

For your own edification I will post that paragraph in the Declaration of Independence for you to read:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world."

It's also sad that many seem to be even embracing the idea that it's government's job to fulfill our every desire, from basic necessities to not so basic wants, from cradle to grave.

Post edited at 10:09 am on July 3, 2009 by Forever Angel

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"If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it.
Now, quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers..."
- Homer Simpson

Imaginary safety and security?

Terrorists: We were attacked. Over 2000 of our civilians were viciously murdered.
Climate change: There's overwhelming scientific evidence behind why the emission of greenhouse gases will overtime heat up the environment.

Whatever false cries you feel the government is giving, I don't see it, especially considering that most of these are also derived and confirmed by independent sources.

Post edited at 10:16 am on July 3, 2009 by Charolastra

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y'all nukhuhs that be aight wit dat bullshiiit, just hit us up mang

But all that other romanticizing and false alarms thing you tried to pull, it's just some lame agenda of yours.

Post edited at 10:19 am on July 3, 2009 by Charolastra

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y'all nukhuhs that be aight wit dat bullshiiit, just hit us up mang

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You're doing it again. I was merely saying that freedom to do anything and everything that doesn't harm anyone else in the process is not often 'free', thus most often outlawed.

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Your statement makes no sense.  You're simply stating that things that are outlawed aren't free to do.  That is a tautology. It makes no case.  

Quote: from Charolastra at 10:13 am on July 3, 2009

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Imaginary safety and security?

Terrorists: We were attacked. Over 2000 of our civilians were viciously murdered.
Climate change: There's overwhelming scientific evidence behind why the emission of greenhouse gases will overtime heat up the environment.

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Yes we were attacked.  Yes over 2,000 people were murdered.  Does this warrant the permanent infringement of the rights of over 350 million people in perpetuity?  No it does not.  Is government empowered by the rule of law contained in the Constitution to cause such an infringement?  No it is not.

The globe has been showing a cooling trend over the past 11 years.  The NOAA has just changed its averaging formula to be an average of 30 years instead of ten because then it would be forced to change its entire predictions because the evidence goes against its premise.  

As a scientist myself, I can tell you that doing so is not science.  One does not modify the data in order to show what one wants to show, one modifys one's theory (in this case hypothesis) to match the data.

Quote: from Charolastra at 10:13 am on July 3, 2009

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Whatever false cries you feel the government is giving, I don't see it, especially considering that most of these are also derived and confirmed by independent sources.

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Really then why did the EPA politically squash a scientific report (that had been peer reviewed) that would have harmed the political attempt to pass cap and trade legislation?

Of course you don't see it.  You don't want to see it so you don't look for it and anything leading down that path you dismiss without any evidence as you've done above.

Paying attention to the world and politics is hard, it requires attention, dedication, a rational mind, a knowledge of history, and an ability to make logical comparisons and extrapolate data points.  It is also scary as hell.  There is a lot of reasons why its easier to simply repeat the sound-bytes you've heard from the pathetic news media that make you feel safe.

I mean its scary that as of 2006 the GAO showed that the entire US GDP would be eaten up by Social Security and Medicare by 2040.  Its even worse that this was before Bush passed Medicare part D which dramatically increased funding, or before the bailouts, or before Obama quadrupled Bush's excessive federal deficits.  

Where do you think the brightline for national bankruptcy is now?  Of course you could just be like Rep Maxine Waters and think we can solve all of our problems with hyper inflating the currency or as she put it "We can just print more money".

You have the smugness of position that can only come from having never examined your own position.

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Do I feel my constitutional rights are often eroded? Yes, imagine the fact that I can't even legally marry someone I love because they're the same gender as I am.

But all that other romanticizing and false alarms thing you tried to pull, it's just some lame agenda of yours.

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What agenda do I have?  You claim I have one - show it.

I want you to be able to marry anyone you want who wishes to also marry you.  I want you to be as free as possible to live your life as you wish so long as that harms no other person attempting to do the same.

Where is my agenda?  The agenda of liberty, of peace, o f mutual respect for each other?  I proudly admit that this is my agenda.  For you to be free, for me to be free, for the whole god damned world to be free.

You want to see an enemy when you should be embracing a friend.  That kind of divisiveness is not beneficial to a free and peaceful society.